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EPISODE 030 : 09/30/2021​

Paula Thomas, Let’s Talk Loyalty

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Paula Thomas is the creator of the popular “Let’s Talk Loyalty” podcast and the author of a variety of articles on global best practices in convenience retail. With over twenty years of experience delivering tangible results for some of the world’s top brands, her clients have included Telefonica O2 Ireland, Electric Ireland, AIB, Avios and The Entertainer Group.

Host: Ned Hayes and Ashley Coates
Guest: Paula Thomas

Topics discussed in this episode

  • Customers are the only source of income for a company 
  • When there are fewer customers companies tend to value their customers more 
  • In loyalty, there is the mindset – or the ‘why’ – and the mechanics. Or, the ‘what’
  • Find out what companies are struggling with and what they are currently testing.

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Audio Transcript

Ned Hayes [00:00:01] Welcome to SparkPlug, where we talk to smart people working at the intersection of business and technology. Brought to you by snowshoe making mobile location smarter. SparkPlug is happy to welcome Paula Thomas today, Paula is the creator of the Let’s Talk Loyalty podcast and the author of variety of articles on global best practices and Convenience Retail. With over 20 years of experience delivering tangible results for some of the world’s top brands, her clients have included Telefonica, O2 Ireland, Electric Ireland, AIB, Avios and the Entertainer Group. Welcome, Paula. 

Paula Thomas [00:00:39] Thank you so much, Ned. It’s great to be here.

Ashley Coates [00:00:41] So happy to have you here, Paula. As you are an expert in loyalty, we had to get you on our show and we talk a lot about loyalt on SparkPlug. You have an extensive professional history and focus on loyalty. Can you tell us what led you to where you are today and why is loyalty so important to you? 

Paula Thomas [00:00:59] Thank you. Actually, it’s it’s a lovely question. And so, as Ned said, I have, you know, many years, I’m certainly aging myself with all of that experience. And but I guess, I suppose the last decade or so has been dedicated to this loyalty industry and I suppose the origins of why I love loyalty go back even further. So I worked for Emirates Airline many years ago, and it was in a very interesting role that was quite innovative where we were trying to change some behavior and particularly trying to drive customers to, for example, book online on our websites. And it was at the very early stages of e-commerce and at the time the only, I suppose tool I had available to try and drive that behavior change was our loyalty program. So I think that planted the seed of the love of loyalty. And then I was very lucky actually. Ironically, when the global recession hit the world and for consulting people like me, there wasn’t much business around. But actually, loyalty programs are countercyclical. So I really found that in fact, when there are fewer customers, certainly in lots of industries like Telefonica, for example, they start to value their customers a lot more and start to spend more money on them. So I got into the loyalty profession and I never left. 

Ashley Coates [00:02:16] Fantastic. And can you please walk our audience through what you are providing to your customers today who are looking for innovative ways to engage? 

Paula Thomas [00:02:25] Yes, thank you. So one of the interesting things for me is when I started my podcast, it was the first, I believe, dedicated podcast for loyalty marketing professionals. So I was consulting, doing a lot of thought leadership and writing articles and writing a book. But essentially, I suppose I feel that there are bigger conversations that need to be had. And I think what I always found challenging as a consultant was, actually, I don’t have all of the answers and sometimes I have more questions than I have answers. So a podcast really gives me a lot of inspiration. I would say where I can talk to particularly big brands and find out what they’re thinking. You know, what are they struggling with? What are they testing? What would they say you should never do with your loyalty program? So, yeah, so so it’s really interesting. And to be honest with you, I have, you know, literally resigned from all consulting work, pretty much just finishing off a few final projects. But my main priority is, you know, Let’s Talk Loyalty. And by that, I definitely mean both sides of it. So when I think about the title of my show, I like to think about as, first of all, the mindset of loyalty, which I think is very different to the mechanics of loyalty. So my hope is that I can educate people on how to think about loyalty and then also help them to to do it. So it’s the kind of why and the how, I guess in simple terms. 

Ned Hayes [00:03:52] So I know you just mentioned mindset. So tell us the critical parts of the mindset that have to be there in order to make loyalty successful. 

Paula Thomas [00:04:01] Well, I was reviewing an episode in Ned today, for example, where, you know, somebody put it very succinctly a guest on my show. And he said, you know, customers are the only source of income for a company. And I thought, you know, that’s super clear and super clever. So I think there has to be that very clear laser focus on this is where all of our revenue is coming from. And another guest, actually, I tend to, as you would expect, I was quote a lot of guests now, but I did have been in company. I had Rob Marki, one of the founders of the loyalty division and from Bain and Company, and his insight was super useful as well. So. So what Rob said was what they have noticed is there’s something they call the founder’s mentality. And it’s basically really interesting because I’ve been in a very small way, a founder of of, you know, a number of small businesses. And I think that that’s when you really do kind of go, I can’t afford to lose any customer. I really don’t want to. So let me take care of every aspect of their journey and take care of them as if they were my friend or as if they were my family. And to me, then I tend to summarize it with kind of integrity. So when I talk about a loyalty mindset, for me, it’s how best can I take care of this customer? So they want to be my customer and they want to bring other people as well, so. So that’s kind of how I think about it. 

Ashley Coates [00:05:26] How is integrity related to authenticity? 

Paula Thomas [00:05:29] I think they are probably very similar. Actually, there’s lots of words that come through to me. Authenticity probably comes mainly in a personality form. So, for example, as a as a podcast host, I need to be questioning in a way that’s more challenging if I’m going to be authentic to understanding what somebody is doing. I don’t want to just try and make people look good all of the time, but I want to understand authentically what’s going on with that. Whereas integrity might not be something that directly you would see, but I think you will feel it. So it might be something as different as, you know, the difference, the communication style or are we going to devalue our currency, for example, like that would be probably quite dramatic example of how to me, then you’re lacking integrity. If you’re running a loyalty program, you’re promising a certain reward to a customer. Maybe then you pull back on that. So I think there’s lots of different ways and again, lots of lovely discussions we can have about those kind of things. 

Ned Hayes [00:06:29] Well, just a quick follow up there. Can you think of a couple clients or companies in the news that you feel really communicate integrity to their audience and to their customers? 

Paula Thomas [00:06:42] I think one that I’ve often quoted Ned as my favorite loyalty program of all time is one that’s very existence comes from a principle of integrity and it’s a program in South Africa. So I guess it doesn’t always get the global visibility, but it’s a program called Vitality from a company called Discovery, and it’s a health insurance company. It’s about 25 years old. But I suppose the underlying integrity, the principle that I love so much about the program is they really realized that if customers behaved in a way that was more healthy, then in fact their insurance claims would come down and actually they’d be happier human beings. So there was a business rationale and quite a human rationale to incentivize customers to take responsibility, and therefore they built an entire loyalty program, which, by the way, is a paid loyalty program. But where you get extraordinary benefits, you know, for example, over a short term, let’s say, this week I go to the gym three times. I might get a free Starbucks, you know, so there are like achievable goals that I can be rewarded with. But actually, I’ve been to the gym three times, so the chances of me claiming my health insurance is going to be much less than somebody who hasn’t done that behavior. So I think that that’s just an extraordinary case study and again, one I think deserves more global visibility. 

Ashley Coates [00:08:03] And then you also mentioned Paula, that along with mindset, there are the mechanics of loyalty. So when you talk about the mechanics of loyalty, clearly they have changed over time. What mechanics have worked in the past and aren’t working now? 

Paula Thomas [00:08:17] When I talk about the different ways loyalty programs were structured in the past, the original mechanics where we’re quite simply a stump format that was the very first form, but then it became the points currency. So this was a very clever innovation, but it was back in the 1980s, and it served a very useful purpose to create a currency that customers could understand what they were earning and therefore what they could burn or what they could redeem. So I think there is still plenty of value because customers understand that mechanics so well, but also I think there’s a certain element of that being a little bit jaded. So when I talked with many kind of clients in the past, a lot of people have said, Oh, points, oh, you know, that’s a bit like it’s been done before. So I think it’s incumbent on us as loyalty professionals to find, I suppose, new ways to inspire our customers. And there are new models coming through and different forms of loyalty. My favorite form of loyalty in the, I suppose, present and very recent past, and I think it’s been and certainly accelerated by the pandemic, would be, for example, paid loyalty. So I think many people are familiar with Amazon Prime, but I don’t even think that’s the best example. What I think is certain and food and beverage companies and again, in the U.S. market, for example, Panera Bread is probably the the best example I’ve seen in terms of a coffee company that really realized that customers were beginning to resent maybe how much money they were spending on coffee every day. And particularly, I think, when it comes to barista crafted coffee. So we all love it. It is a moment of joy, but actually the average spend is about $1200 a year or so so that can be significant for lots of customers. Panera Bread, for example, decided to create a loyalty program and a proposition for their customers where you could literally get unlimited coffee for $8.99. And what they found was customers not only came in more frequently, but they were also much more tempted to buy their lunch or to buy a cookie. So the cross-sell the upsell, like there really has been very compelling results they have published and I’m dying to get them on my show. That’s one of my wish lists, you know, to have these kind of brands talking, Let’s Talk Loyalty about those results, but I definitely think that’s a model that is new. It’s emerging and has a new place in this world.

Ned Hayes [00:10:54] Well technology has certainly changed loyalty. Are there specific mechanical pieces that a company has to have in place just to make basic loyalty function today? 

Paula Thomas [00:11:03] It’s very difficult to answer in a simple way Ned, because the classic one that we often talk about is Apple is just such an extraordinarily successful retailer, and they don’t have a consumer loyalty program, for example. For me, it does depend on the business. A lot of the characteristics of the business that needs a loyalty program would be, for example, industries where there’s a lot of sameness. So airlines or telecommunications companies, energy companies where the customer probably doesn’t see it much different. If I have a phone contract with this company versus that company wants the kind of package is in place, it can become a race to the bottom. So a loyalty program is a very good way to differentiate one telecommunications company from another because there’s added reasons. So in those type of industries, I believe it’s a very big opportunity to differentiate yourself and but not always essential. What I have found Ned, and I don’t know about your business experience, but for me, there always does seem to be the Pareto principle like there genuinely is, you know, 80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your customers. And if you’re in B2B, then maybe you just need to call those people every so often and stay in touch and build your relationship. But sometimes in consumer businesses, it’s more difficult and you might need the technology then to facilitate the conversations. 

Ashley Coates [00:12:28] So Paula, you’ve mentioned several loyalty programs around the world that you really admire. I’m curious if there are any new loyalty concepts that you would really like to see succeed in the future, which new ways of creating loyalty would really cheer on to success? 

Paula Thomas [00:12:45] Oh, I love that question. I have two which are personal favorites, and they’re probably unexpected, I would say, because I like I like the idea that we do need to do something very new. So actually, I’ll give a name check to one that’s actually just been launched eight weeks ago, which is very new, and I really do love the concept. It’s a US program. It’s called BILT rewards, B-I-L-T, and it’s rewarding you for paying your rent on your home. So it’s actually an extraordinary proposition. It has never been done before, and it is the biggest single monthly expenditure, particularly for Gen Z millennial demographics. So that’s one I’ll give a shout out to what has global potential. I’ve just interviewed them myself. So again, very kind of excited about what they’re building and what they’ve managed to successfully create. But to answer your question more directly, Ashley, I think there’s a big opportunity in the space of communications. So yes, the mechanics, you know, probably won’t be much different. But when I think about the power of, for example, a podcast to create an emotion of loyalty, I find that to be an extraordinary opportunity where people can suddenly start to connect with the brand in a way they may never have done before by listening to the brand’s story, maybe listening to new information and what’s happening in the business. And I’ve seen this happening in a beauty industry, for example, and that totally shocked me. A company in Australia that has a loyalty program but also has two million downloads on a podcast audio form for skin care. It’s amazing. So that proves. And again, for me, knowing my audience, they feel differently if they’ve listened to my voice. So the human voice is the oldest form of communication and definitely makes people trust back to your point about authenticity. My other piece I feel quite strongly about, and I’m looking to try and dabble in this in some way myself. But on the messaging platforms like WhatsApp, certainly in this part of the world, and I know it’s different in every country, which one is the dominant messaging platforms, but I think there’s a jadedness around, you know, brands, particularly in retail that ask people to download our app and people are kind of going, Look, I used to have a stuffed wallet now, have a very busy phone, and I just don’t want to be downloading any more stuff, you know, like, why am I going to bother? So my belief is that if we can build our programs, I guess in the way many programs on WeChat in China are all being built in one place. So you have like a super app. So I would love to have a loyalty program that’s entirely on WhatsApp. You know, with all of my points and all of my communications and I can opt in and opt out of how much information I want. I think that’s the future. So I’m hoping we go that direction. 

Ned Hayes [00:15:35] Well, speaking of the future, it was just announced in the last 24 hours that people are now spending more at Amazon than at Walmart. So yes, the biggest e-commerce company outside China has now unseated the biggest brick and mortar seller. So do you have any thoughts on that, that massive change? 

Paula Thomas [00:15:50] Well, I think we all saw it coming and maybe not as quickly as Amazon did. I mean, I think there’s a market for both Ned. If I’m honest, I saw the headline. It certainly didn’t shock me. I celebrate what Amazon does well. I think, like all of us, they’re absolutely not perfect. But I admire obviously the prime proposition from a loyalty perspective, but also the added value that they do in other areas like I love Prime Video, for example. So I think Amazon has an extraordinary potential to make a difference to all of our lives. I am a subscriber, for example, even here where I live in Dubai and it is my default. So it does facilitate, I suppose, functional shopping, I would say, as distinct from experiential shopping or offline and going back to the the brick and mortar type stuff. So I think it is a great role to play and I hope they continue to do more things well. 

Ashley Coates [00:16:44] So then in an era of e-commerce and omni channel, I want to ask you if loyalty still matters and I can guess what your answer is going to be, but I’m wondering if you could elaborate on why. 

Paula Thomas [00:16:56] Sure. Well, I mean, I think human beings are increasingly frustrated, isolated with higher expectations. So I think, for example, that there is a risk that somebody like Amazon that is purely functional can be overtaken by, you know, let’s say, a company like Chewy in the US, which is a pet product supplier, food and stuff for for pets. So I am a pet parent, as they say, and I know how Chewy takes care of its customers makes me want to be a customer of Chewy, much more than a customer of Amazon for that particular category. So I think at the end of the day, we always talk certainly in our industry about the difference between transactional loyalty and emotional loyalty. And again, emotional loyalty can be created in lots of different ways. I’m not saying that the loyalty program, but I do think we all have to have both sides of our brains that go, OK yeah makes sense to buy from these guys, but I love what Chewy is doing or I love what this brand is doing. And that is, I think, a reality that we all think we’re rational human beings, but we make a lot of irrational decisions. So let’s make sure as marketing professionals that we tap into both sides. 

Ashley Coates [00:18:11] And then along the lines of emotional loyalty, I’m sure that’s often created through engagement with customers, and knowing your customers. And I’m wondering if you have thoughts on what’s the right level of engagement from businesses because too much can almost be a turn off sometimes to customers? 

Paula Thomas [00:18:30] For sure. For sure. And you’re right, actually, like I’ve worked at both ends of the industry in terms of what is needed on the engagement front. And as Ned mentioned at the start, most recently, I’ve been working with convenience retail, and that’s probably the one time where you really don’t want to engage like you want to pay for your gas or you want to just pick up the the newspaper. So I have noticed my own consumer behavior, for example, and this is in the offline world, obviously brick and mortar retail. But I have noticed that I find it sometimes just excessive when I know the the script, the strategy and the pressure. Actually, that’s being put on me when I walk into a store because I know that person’s got a sales targets. So I’m finding that I’m making less eye contact with the store staff because I don’t want to engage and I’m just like, they’ll say hello, I will answer, but I will not look at them. So I think it really takes a very well-trained set of staff employees to really engage at the level that’s appropriate in the industry on the day with the individual. Like, it’s not really a science, you know, again, it’s back to being human. So pay attention to that customer’s energy and do they look like they’re happy to chat? Or are they just like, you know, they’re going in and they’re going out? Don’t get in the way. It’s a very different. We can all feel it for sure, right? 

Ned Hayes [00:19:54] This past year, SnowShoe created this podcast that has had some success, and we created it because we really wanted to understand the market more and contribute and share some of our learnings and learn from the best. So that was our rationale for creating our podcast. But I’d love to jump back to the beginning for you. What gap did you see in the market that led you to create the Let’s Talk Loyalty podcast? 

Paula Thomas [00:20:19] Thanks, Ned. Yes, it was very much a pain point of my own, which they always say is the best place to start. It was the guilt of watching the magazines from the industry piling up on my desk with amazing information that I never got around to reading. So I just kind of went, You know what? It’s not working, and I’m missing out. So I felt that kind of like, you know, sense of, Oh my god, something’s a problem. And I was obviously doing some driving or, you know, even at home having some kind of downtime and audio just really appeals to me. So there was that, I suppose, on one side and then I just wanted to do something innovative that hadn’t been done at the loyalty industry. And again, I did the research. I found a couple of things related, but nothing even with loyalty in the title. So I said, I wonder, can I be that voice? And like you Ned, I decided to do it, to be of service for sure to ask all of those questions that were burning in the back of my mind. But I also believed there was a business. And in fact, now, as I think I’ve shared with you, there is a business. This is my business. So I’ve resigned. The consulting staff and I have some wonderful sponsors who are loyalty technology companies, and they clearly want to be heard and seen and spoken to by people running all of these big loyalty programs around the world. So I have a huge following. Thank goodness now I feel very happy with all of the work I’m doing. It’s well distributed, very well listened to and I watched the numbers, as I’m sure you do. So, yeah, definitely both a personal need and a professional industry need, I believe. 

Ashley Coates [00:21:52] Congratulations on the success of your podcast. That’s fantastic. 

Paula Thomas [00:21:56] Thank you Ashley. 

Ashley Coates [00:21:57] I’m curious, you’ve been that your most notable guests and what have you? 

Paula Thomas [00:22:02] Oh my goodness. I always, you know, I always worry about that question because it’s like choosing between your favorite children. I guess I’ll name check one that’s coming up purely because his name will be known by an awful lot of people. So I’m super excited that he’s coming on the show. So Fred Reicheld is literally the creator of Net Promoter Score. So Fred is launching his first book in 10 years in November. So as the brains behind that incredible framework, which is used by now, the vast majority of Fortune 1000 companies, he’s coming on the show. So watch this space and that’ll be in November. But also, for example, and the Loyalty Science Lab, I did a fantastic interview, more on the academic side and the professor of marketing at Wharton University. So what I’m loving is that there is more science, more academia that are putting, I suppose, the disciplines and the frameworks into place, you know, to balance alongside, I suppose, all of my brand guests. So I’ve had American Airlines, I’ve had Emirates Airline, I’ve had Etihad, British Airways. So clearly have a passion for airlines. It’s a big part of the industry, but yeah, some really interesting ones. And then again, today I was reviewing a show with them. Some friends I work with down in Australia who do more of the evaluation work, you know, a whole concept called return on loyalty. How can you prove that your loyalty investment actually is worthwhile because there’s a big challenge in loyalty, you know, because obviously, if you’re going to be a customer of a business, then you’re going to join the loyalty program, but doesn’t mean the loyalty program made you loyal. So we have to figure all of that out. So there’s a hundred and thirty four episodes, actually, I find it hard to choose. 

Ashley Coates [00:23:39] Oh my gosh. So any tips for us on how to create a successful podcast? 

Paula Thomas [00:23:45] Well, loads. We probably don’t have enough time now, but what I would say is I have learned that there is an audience for short format as well as full interview formats. So I now do a five minute show every week as well as a full interview like this, and it’s amazing. Some people just have the five minutes and they want to hear the summary of a previous episode, and that’s something I found is super useful. 

Ned Hayes [00:24:07] Right? Well, I’ve also seen lots of people changing their habits during the pandemic over the last two years. So I’m curious you’ve seen things change in the retail and loyalty industry. Of course we have. But you know, I’d love to hear your perspective. 

Paula Thomas [00:24:21] Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me is that everything has been accelerated from the digital transformation. So I think a lot of the things that are happening in retail now, like, for example, contactless payments, all of those kind of building the digital connection with your customer that has suddenly become the single most important priority for many businesses. So in some ways, I think brands haven’t necessarily changed their strategy, but they’ve just had to speed it up and get to market so much more quickly. This subscription model I mentioned in terms of paid loyalty is probably the biggest change that I’ve seen. And the other piece, which again, we’ve already kind of briefly touched on, but the whole concept of emotional loyalty that is becoming the differentiator because it is relatively simple to say we’ll build a points program and will offer rewards to our customers but actually do they care? Are we actually tapping into them and actually a final one that’s just come to my mind as well Ned is the importance of community. So I did a great show with IKEA and they have a gorgeous brand and again, a global retailer. So it’s called the IKEA family program. But what they’ve realized is particularly with their reputation for potential complexity, let’s say, with their products. I, for one, am not very capable with the IKEA products in terms of building them. I love the brand of the in-store experience. But what they realized is that their own members of their family can advise each other in a way that the brand themselves can’t always do that. So loyalty program owners, I think, can really connect their members to each other, not just have this bi directional relationship. They can actually build a whole tribe. So I think that’s an extraordinary change again accelerated by the pandemic and one that I think is fantastic for certain brands. Not every brand, but I love that concept. 

Ned Hayes [00:26:14] Well, people speak about going back to normal post-pandemic, but I think some things that we’ve learned during the pandemic will stay with us. What types of technologies or practices do you think will remain post-pandemic? 

Paula Thomas [00:26:28] I think anything that simplifies our lives. So when I think about, you know, again, the mindset of loyalty, one of the things that really has amazed me is the level of complexity that we’ve allowed built up over the years. And I was traveling recently, actually back to my home country, back to Ireland. And I noticed, in fact, with lots of the restaurants, they’ve really simplified their menu and I think they’ve made themselves more efficient. I know that’s less than the technology side, but I think technology is very much in the same space. I really want something that does everything in a very easy and quick and simple way. So I think any technology that can eliminate layers, the log ins and all of that kind of stuff. Again, maybe the super app saying, maybe I just have to go get WeChat and bring it to the Western world. But yeah, I think technology needs to make our lives easier at an individual level and then people will embrace it. 

Ashley Coates [00:27:21] And where are you most challenged during the pandemic, Paula? 

Paula Thomas [00:27:25] Am I have to say? Actually, I have been super lucky and I would make the point again. I haven’t had thankfully any health issues. I live in a country that only locked down for six weeks. So certainly in this city I live in Dubai, we have had a very commercially beneficial. It’s good for everything, so I haven’t been challenged financially, thank goodness mentally or in any way like that. So you know, again, I made the point already that loyalty is countercyclical. So because a lot of people are kind of going, Oh my goodness, we really need to focus on this loyalty thing, then business is good for me. Thankfully, all of my family and everything are really well, so. So my my challenges are around showing up and doing the, you know, you know what it’s like. I don’t need to tell you like finding the right guests and doing a great job. Learning to be a journalist, I guess, is being a skill that I just kind of I’m making it up as I go along, and it’s not easy. You guys will know to to have an engaging conversation. So that’s probably the way of being challenged the most, I would say. 

Ned Hayes [00:28:30] Well, we all had challenges during the pandemic. What are you most optimistic about now? 

Paula Thomas [00:28:35] Ooh. Well, you know, I think everything’s there to play for an edge. You know, I believe in the principle of excellence. So I really feel that certainly with the growth in podcasting, with the growth of interest in taking care of your customers like I fundamentally believe I am now certainly a media player in the industry. I can probably facilitate connections within the loyalty community. So for me, it is a case of, you know, can I build the next, you know, WhatsApp based loyalty program or I’m kind of looking to do something that’s fun. I feel like I’m just at an age now. I’ve done all of the safe stuff. And yeah, I’m ready to be a little bit braver. So yeah, I’m kind of out there looking fantastic. 

Ned Hayes [00:29:17] Well, we have two last questions for you. The first is kind of a crystal ball one. If we could ask you to look at five 10 years into the future, where do you see the state of loyalty going? 

Paula Thomas [00:29:28] I see it very much evolving upwards Ned. And I’m really, I suppose, passionate about, you know, the field of CX or customer experience. And I fundamentally believe that a lot of loyalty professionals will really, you know, move up into those bigger roles. And I suppose the reason I like CX is because it really showcases the importance of excellence, and it’s back to maybe the founders mindset. What’s the overall customer experience with your business? So when I think about the future five or 10 years hence, I think there be more brands that actually do. For example, they care if I’m getting frustrated with their chat bots or their, you know, call center, so they’ll start to fix the things that were put in. For the right reasons, maybe in terms of efficiency, but actually fall down at a human level. So I think those kind of things will kind of get out of the way and we’ll find ways to take better care of our customers. 

Ashley Coates [00:30:24] And our last question for you is what is your personal mission and what do you want to be remembered for? 

Paula Thomas [00:30:30] Oh, nice one. Yes, quite dramatic, really, isn’t it? I guess it’s back to the point about innovation. So I want to be somebody that finds something that’s really new and really fun, but really is of service. And again, I’m looking at lots of ideas in that space. I’m very passionate personally about personal development, about a positive mindset. Actually, my my nickname with my friends in Ireland is Positive Paula. So if there was something that I could do, it would be maybe help other people, particularly when maybe they’re having a tough time to find a different way to where to find something to be positive about. 

Ned Hayes [00:31:10] Thank you so much for your time with us. Really appreciate the conversation. 

Paula Thomas [00:31:14] Wonderful. I really enjoyed it guys. 

Ned Hayes [00:31:18] Thanks for listening today to the SparkPlug podcast and brought to you by Snowshoe Snow.sh For smarter mobile location, Spark Plug is a wholly owned property of snowshoe all content. Copyright 2021 SparkPlug Media.